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CRAMER: Right.

Sen. CLINTON: And if you look at the balance sheet in terms of pluses and minuses do we stay and invest here, we don't have a permanent R&D tax credit. We're always, you know, trying to rush around, figuring whether we're going to extend it for another year. That is nuts. If we're serious about creating jobs and having a competitive economy with a strong middle class for the future, then we've got to have leadership in the public and the private sector that comes together and says, `What do we need to do? Let's get about doing it. Let's be smart about it.'

CRAMER: OK.

Sen. CLINTON: But for goodness sakes, let's get under way.

CRAMER: Right. Now you are campaigning in Pennsylvania where nearly one-sixth of all manufacturing workers depend on exports. Why risk tinkering with NAFTA when Pennsylvania job growth depends on NAFTA?

Sen. CLINTON: Well, I think that we have some advantages that we want to continue when it comes to NAFTA and other trade agreements, but we also have to take a hard look at what we're going to do about those sectors of the economy and regions of the country, Pennsylvania, part of upstate New York that I represent, Ohio, Michigan, we know them, are disadvantaged. Now, it's not all NAFTA, let's be serious. But it is the failure to have core labor and environmental standards. And the reason that's important, Jim, is because we've got to lead the world, not follow. And if we begin to focus on labor and environmental standards, we're going to have to deal with China, for example, with scandals or problems like we see with the production of heparin. Why do we have contaminated heparin that has caused the death of Americans? Because neither the Chinese government nor the American companies had to live up to any standards. So this is not only about saving jobs, although I think that we'll get some benefit from that.

CRAMER: Right.

Sen. CLINTON: But this is about raising the standards of the global economy so that when you're in the hospital with somebody who you care about who's got a blood clot, and they're on some, you know, medicine like heparin, we know that there's a supply chain that is up to our standards.

CRAMER: But aren't you concerned, President Clinton brought in NAFTA, which then created--there's a dramatic increase, 32 percent of Pennsylvania's top two trading partners, Canada and Mexico, all since NAFTA. I hear what you're saying. I understand the heparin issue, I understand the safety issues, but you're talking about 233,000 workers in Pennsylvania who work for foreign companies. You are, I think, slipping down the slippery road of protectionism. We would end those high-paying jobs if we got protectionist in this country.

Sen. CLINTON: Well, we certainly don't want to end any high-paying jobs, but even a distinguished economist like Paul Samuelson has said that we ought to be smart about what we think comparative advantage means in the 21st century. I'll give you a quick example. I commissioned a study along the New York/Canadian border because I kept hearing from my farmers and my small businesses, they were having trouble getting their products into Canada. Why? Because there were hidden objections and obstacles. You know, everybody looks at the treaty known as NAFTA and says, `Well, this should work.' The problem is the word doesn't sometimes filter down.

CRAMER: OK.

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