What:Rudy Giuliani, former New York City Mayor and Presidential Candidate to be Interviewed on Kudlow & Company today.
When:Monday, March 26th at 5 PM ET
Where:CNBC's Kudlow & Company
The following is the unofficial transcript of a CNBC interview with Former New York City Mayor and Presidential Candidate Rudy Giuliani on "Kudlow & Company" today at 5PM ET. All references must be sourced to CNBC.
In the interview, Giuliani discusses a variety of topics including the housing report, sub-prime mortgages, the economy, his book "Leadership," the stock market, Sarbanes Oxley, being mayer of New York, taxes, global warming, 9/11, why he didn't run against Hilary Clinton in 2006 and his presidential candidacy.
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Hi and welcome to CNBC's KUDLOW & COMPANY.
Mr. RUDY GIULIANI: Thank you, Larry.
KUDLOW:Yes, we're very grateful. Let me begin with the immediate news this morning on Wall Street. A very bleak housing report. New home sales dropped four percent. It was unexpected. It raises all kinds of questions about a housing recession, the impact of the fed prime mortgage values, how is the US economy going to survive? Stocks dropped 90 bucks right off the top. Do you have a thought on this whole issue of the housing down turn?
Mr. GIULIANI:If you're talking about a response of government, probably what government can do best is to try to limit spending and try to bring down government spending. We haven't done that in a while. We haven't done it in a concerted way. And it seems to me that's how the federal budget can have the best impact on the private economy. And make it clear that we're going to extend the tax cuts and it's not just a temporary thing so people can look forward to long term planning. And look for other ways in which we can put money back in the private sector.
KUDLOW:Have you given any thought to this whole controversy about sub-prime mortgages? You know, it's interesting, Congress in its wisdom for many years has been putting the heat on lenders to lend more to low income people, to minorities and so forth. That's what the lenders did. Now in the rising interest rates cycle, some of them are going to be out of luck. There is a foreclosure rate and there is a default rate. Do you think Congress should get in and regulate this area?
Mr. GIULIANI:Very reluctantly, I would think. I can't say that I know enough about it to give you a detailed opinion of it, but my instinct would be that Congress should stay out of it. We'd be better off if Congress did stay out of it. If some mistakes were made, and they'd be too aggressive, and after all, the housing market was growing by leaps and bounds for a very, very long time, that sometimes creates over investment. Sometimes creates bad decisions. It's kind of the natural thing in the market. So I'd rather have it correct itself than have Congress try to correct.
KUDLOW:As you travel around New York, obviously, but also outside of New York, you've been all over the country. How do you see the economy? What do you hear people saying about the American economy?
Mr. GIULIANI:The American economy is essentially a strong economy. One of the strongest in the world. I mean, a couple of economies are growing faster than ours, but they're coming for a very different place. You know, China, India. Of the mature economies we're probably growing the fastest. Of the, you know, full grown economies, we're growing the fastest. I think the tax cuts the president did are stimulating that economy. I feel very, very bad he didn't get the credit for that that he deserved. I don't know exactly why that is. Maybe it wasn't publicized in the right way. Maybe they just don't want to give him credit for anything, but the reality is it is fundamentally a strong economy with things you have to work on. But there's always things that you have to work on. And there's always going to be cycles. You're going to have too much of an investment in housing and then everybody's going to get too aggressive and then you're going to have to correct. And that's the nature of the free economy.
What:Rudy Giuliani, former New York City Mayor and Presidential Candidate to be Interviewed on Kudlow & Company today.
When:Monday, March 26th at 5 PM ET
Where:CNBC's Kudlow & Company
KUDLOW:Do you see a recession out there? Is that what you're hearing?
Mr. GIULIANI:I'm not hearing that, I heard what Greenspan says and I've heard what some people say and you hear some people say that and you see--you hear other people who say it's just a correction. But again, I'm not an expert. I'm not--I wouldn't want anybody to take my prediction of what is exactly going to happen in the future. I just think the government...
KUDLOW:Your goal as the mayor?
Mr. GIULIANI:I said my goal as the mayor was to do what's best for the city of New York so it had a positive impact on the economy. Whether the economy was in a period of growth or in a period of recession. And the best way to do that if it keeps spending under control, to try to get taxes down to competitive levels, put more money back into the private sector, regulate only when you have to, don't over regulate, let markets correct themselves. It's seems to us that's the proper role of government is. It's your job to do the predicting.
KUDLOW:In that--in your book, "Leadership," you talk several times about the benefits of a free economy. You talk about capitalism. I want to ask you, do you regard yourself as a free market capitalist? Do you regard yourself as a supply sider?
Mr. GIULIANI:I regard myself as a supply sider for sure. I mean, watched Ronald Reagan do it and learned it, so it works. Taxes get reduced, more revenue come in. Practiced it as the mayor of New York. I'm the first mayor ever to do that. It's almost harder to do in New York than it is in Washington. There was less of an acceptance for it and more resistance to it. But I have lowered taxes 22, 23 times. I started with a $2.3 billion deficit and by lowering taxes, we cleared that deficit and we started building a pretty big surplus. So not only do I believe in it, I've made it work. So I believe in it really strongly because it comes out of practical experience. Free market, more and more so. I've said over the last 10 to 15 years I've become more and more convinced that globalization, free market economics is the way to go for the United States. It really just challenges us to kind of predict the future and to try to think of the industries we have to create where we can take advantage of the large number of consumers that are emerging in China, the large number of consumers that are emerging in India. If we challenge ourselves, it really gives us the hope of real growth and that's what we should be pointing toward, growth.
KUDLOW:Do you invest in the Stock Market?
Mr. GIULIANI:No, I don't. I don't invest in the Stock Market. I did it a long, long time ago when I was really young and I got involved in all the investigations and all the prosecutions and I felt it was better if I didn't make individual investments. So I'm invested in funds, but not in individual--not in individual stocks.
KUDLOW:Why do people say to me, they don't know who the pro-Stock Market, pro-investor class candidate is. Many of the Democrats have been attacking rich people. They never talk well of the Stock Market. That even on the Republican side, no one is sure who's going to be the pro-Stock Market guy. Is that going to be you?
Mr. GIULIANI:Boy, this is--as the mayor of New York, I consider that a home town industry. I used to talk about the finance industry being to New York what the steel industry is to Pittsburgh 20 or 30 years ago. It's our home town industry. It's the thing that dominates 30 to 40 percent of the economy of New York City. It seems to me that's also true of the United States. And of course, it's the way in which we develop capital and drive these tremendous inventions, creations. I've always been in favor of a low capital-gains tax. In fact, as mayor of New York, I used to try to urge--actually removing the capital-gains tax. I thought it would be one of the best special benefits of New York. I couldn't quite get the Congressional delegation to agree with that. But the idea of you lower the capital-gains tax and if you do it smartly, you're going to end up with more revenues from the lower tax than you do from the higher tax. So I do think that if you look at my background and you look at my experience as mayor, I probably have the most aggressive, fiscal conservative record, supply side record. I'm probably the only one that's really practiced it.
What:Rudy Giuliani, former New York City Mayor and Presidential Candidate to be Interviewed on Kudlow & Company today.
When:Monday, March 26th at 5 PM ET
Where:CNBC's Kudlow & Company
KUDLOW:Do you see a recession out there? Is that what you're hearing?
Mr. GIULIANI:I'm not hearing that, I heard what Greenspan says and I've heard what some people say and you hear some people say that and you see--you hear other people who say it's just a correction. But again, I'm not an expert. I'm not--I wouldn't want anybody to take my prediction of what is exactly going to happen in the future. I just think the government...
KUDLOW:Your goal as the mayor?
Mr. GIULIANI:I said my goal as the mayor was to do what's best for the city of New York so it had a positive impact on the economy. Whether the economy was in a period of growth or in a period of recession. And the best way to do that if it keeps spending under control, to try to get taxes down to competitive levels, put more money back into the private sector, regulate only when you have to, don't over regulate, let markets correct themselves. It's seems to us that's the proper role of government is. It's your job to do the predicting.
KUDLOW:In that--in your book, "Leadership," you talk several times about the benefits of a free economy. You talk about capitalism. I want to ask you, do you regard yourself as a free market capitalist? Do you regard yourself as a supply sider?
Mr. GIULIANI:I regard myself as a supply sider for sure. I mean, watched Ronald Reagan do it and learned it, so it works. Taxes get reduced, more revenue come in. Practiced it as the mayor of New York. I'm the first mayor ever to do that. It's almost harder to do in New York than it is in Washington. There was less of an acceptance for it and more resistance to it. But I have lowered taxes 22, 23 times. I started with a $2.3 billion deficit and by lowering taxes, we cleared that deficit and we started building a pretty big surplus. So not only do I believe in it, I've made it work. So I believe in it really strongly because it comes out of practical experience. Free market, more and more so. I've said over the last 10 to 15 years I've become more and more convinced that globalization, free market economics is the way to go for the United States. It really just challenges us to kind of predict the future and to try to think of the industries we have to create where we can take advantage of the large number of consumers that are emerging in China, the large number of consumers that are emerging in India. If we challenge ourselves, it really gives us the hope of real growth and that's what we should be pointing toward, growth.
KUDLOW:Do you invest in the Stock Market?
Mr. GIULIANI:No, I don't. I don't invest in the Stock Market. I did it a long, long time ago when I was really young and I got involved in all the investigations and all the prosecutions and I felt it was better if I didn't make individual investments. So I'm invested in funds, but not in individual--not in individual stocks.
KUDLOW:Why do people say to me, they don't know who the pro-Stock Market, pro-investor class candidate is. Many of the Democrats have been attacking rich people. They never talk well of the Stock Market. That even on the Republican side, no one is sure who's going to be the pro-Stock Market guy. Is that going to be you?
Mr. GIULIANI:Boy, this is--as the mayor of New York, I consider that a home town industry. I used to talk about the finance industry being to New York what the steel industry is to Pittsburgh 20 or 30 years ago. It's our home town industry. It's the thing that dominates 30 to 40 percent of the economy of New York City. It seems to me that's also true of the United States. And of course, it's the way in which we develop capital and drive these tremendous inventions, creations. I've always been in favor of a low capital-gains tax. In fact, as mayor of New York, I used to try to urge--actually removing the capital-gains tax. I thought it would be one of the best special benefits of New York. I couldn't quite get the Congressional delegation to agree with that. But the idea of you lower the capital-gains tax and if you do it smartly, you're going to end up with more revenues from the lower tax than you do from the higher tax. So I do think that if you look at my background and you look at my experience as mayor, I probably have the most aggressive, fiscal conservative record, supply side record. I'm probably the only one that's really practiced it.
What:Rudy Giuliani, former New York City Mayor and Presidential Candidate to be Interviewed on Kudlow & Company today.
When:Monday, March 26th at 5 PM ET
Where:CNBC's Kudlow & Company
KUDLOW:Do you see a recession out there? Is that what you're hearing?
Mr. GIULIANI:I'm not hearing that, I heard what Greenspan says and I've heard what some people say and you hear some people say that and you see--you hear other people who say it's just a correction. But again, I'm not an expert. I'm not--I wouldn't want anybody to take my prediction of what is exactly going to happen in the future. I just think the government...
KUDLOW:Your goal as the mayor?
Mr. GIULIANI:I said my goal as the mayor was to do what's best for the city of New York so it had a positive impact on the economy. Whether the economy was in a period of growth or in a period of recession. And the best way to do that if it keeps spending under control, to try to get taxes down to competitive levels, put more money back into the private sector, regulate only when you have to, don't over regulate, let markets correct themselves. It's seems to us that's the proper role of government is. It's your job to do the predicting.
KUDLOW:In that--in your book, "Leadership," you talk several times about the benefits of a free economy. You talk about capitalism. I want to ask you, do you regard yourself as a free market capitalist? Do you regard yourself as a supply sider?
Mr. GIULIANI:I regard myself as a supply sider for sure. I mean, watched Ronald Reagan do it and learned it, so it works. Taxes get reduced, more revenue come in. Practiced it as the mayor of New York. I'm the first mayor ever to do that. It's almost harder to do in New York than it is in Washington. There was less of an acceptance for it and more resistance to it. But I have lowered taxes 22, 23 times. I started with a $2.3 billion deficit and by lowering taxes, we cleared that deficit and we started building a pretty big surplus. So not only do I believe in it, I've made it work. So I believe in it really strongly because it comes out of practical experience. Free market, more and more so. I've said over the last 10 to 15 years I've become more and more convinced that globalization, free market economics is the way to go for the United States. It really just challenges us to kind of predict the future and to try to think of the industries we have to create where we can take advantage of the large number of consumers that are emerging in China, the large number of consumers that are emerging in India. If we challenge ourselves, it really gives us the hope of real growth and that's what we should be pointing toward, growth.
KUDLOW:Do you invest in the Stock Market?
Mr. GIULIANI:No, I don't. I don't invest in the Stock Market. I did it a long, long time ago when I was really young and I got involved in all the investigations and all the prosecutions and I felt it was better if I didn't make individual investments. So I'm invested in funds, but not in individual--not in individual stocks.
KUDLOW:Why do people say to me, they don't know who the pro-Stock Market, pro-investor class candidate is. Many of the Democrats have been attacking rich people. They never talk well of the Stock Market. That even on the Republican side, no one is sure who's going to be the pro-Stock Market guy. Is that going to be you?
Mr. GIULIANI:Boy, this is--as the mayor of New York, I consider that a home town industry. I used to talk about the finance industry being to New York what the steel industry is to Pittsburgh 20 or 30 years ago. It's our home town industry. It's the thing that dominates 30 to 40 percent of the economy of New York City. It seems to me that's also true of the United States. And of course, it's the way in which we develop capital and drive these tremendous inventions, creations. I've always been in favor of a low capital-gains tax. In fact, as mayor of New York, I used to try to urge--actually removing the capital-gains tax. I thought it would be one of the best special benefits of New York. I couldn't quite get the Congressional delegation to agree with that. But the idea of you lower the capital-gains tax and if you do it smartly, you're going to end up with more revenues from the lower tax than you do from the higher tax. So I do think that if you look at my background and you look at my experience as mayor, I probably have the most aggressive, fiscal conservative record, supply side record. I'm probably the only one that's really practiced it.
What:Rudy Giuliani, former New York City Mayor and Presidential Candidate to be Interviewed on Kudlow & Company today.
When:Monday, March 26th at 5 PM ET
Where:CNBC's Kudlow & Company
KUDLOW:Do you see a recession out there? Is that what you're hearing?
Mr. GIULIANI:I'm not hearing that, I heard what Greenspan says and I've heard what some people say and you hear some people say that and you see--you hear other people who say it's just a correction. But again, I'm not an expert. I'm not--I wouldn't want anybody to take my prediction of what is exactly going to happen in the future. I just think the government...
KUDLOW:Your goal as the mayor?
Mr. GIULIANI:I said my goal as the mayor was to do what's best for the city of New York so it had a positive impact on the economy. Whether the economy was in a period of growth or in a period of recession. And the best way to do that if it keeps spending under control, to try to get taxes down to competitive levels, put more money back into the private sector, regulate only when you have to, don't over regulate, let markets correct themselves. It's seems to us that's the proper role of government is. It's your job to do the predicting.
KUDLOW:In that--in your book, "Leadership," you talk several times about the benefits of a free economy. You talk about capitalism. I want to ask you, do you regard yourself as a free market capitalist? Do you regard yourself as a supply sider?
Mr. GIULIANI:I regard myself as a supply sider for sure. I mean, watched Ronald Reagan do it and learned it, so it works. Taxes get reduced, more revenue come in. Practiced it as the mayor of New York. I'm the first mayor ever to do that. It's almost harder to do in New York than it is in Washington. There was less of an acceptance for it and more resistance to it. But I have lowered taxes 22, 23 times. I started with a $2.3 billion deficit and by lowering taxes, we cleared that deficit and we started building a pretty big surplus. So not only do I believe in it, I've made it work. So I believe in it really strongly because it comes out of practical experience. Free market, more and more so. I've said over the last 10 to 15 years I've become more and more convinced that globalization, free market economics is the way to go for the United States. It really just challenges us to kind of predict the future and to try to think of the industries we have to create where we can take advantage of the large number of consumers that are emerging in China, the large number of consumers that are emerging in India. If we challenge ourselves, it really gives us the hope of real growth and that's what we should be pointing toward, growth.
KUDLOW:Do you invest in the Stock Market?
Mr. GIULIANI:No, I don't. I don't invest in the Stock Market. I did it a long, long time ago when I was really young and I got involved in all the investigations and all the prosecutions and I felt it was better if I didn't make individual investments. So I'm invested in funds, but not in individual--not in individual stocks.
KUDLOW:Why do people say to me, they don't know who the pro-Stock Market, pro-investor class candidate is. Many of the Democrats have been attacking rich people. They never talk well of the Stock Market. That even on the Republican side, no one is sure who's going to be the pro-Stock Market guy. Is that going to be you?
Mr. GIULIANI:Boy, this is--as the mayor of New York, I consider that a home town industry. I used to talk about the finance industry being to New York what the steel industry is to Pittsburgh 20 or 30 years ago. It's our home town industry. It's the thing that dominates 30 to 40 percent of the economy of New York City. It seems to me that's also true of the United States. And of course, it's the way in which we develop capital and drive these tremendous inventions, creations. I've always been in favor of a low capital-gains tax. In fact, as mayor of New York, I used to try to urge--actually removing the capital-gains tax. I thought it would be one of the best special benefits of New York. I couldn't quite get the Congressional delegation to agree with that. But the idea of you lower the capital-gains tax and if you do it smartly, you're going to end up with more revenues from the lower tax than you do from the higher tax. So I do think that if you look at my background and you look at my experience as mayor, I probably have the most aggressive, fiscal conservative record, supply side record. I'm probably the only one that's really practiced it.
What:Rudy Giuliani, former New York City Mayor and Presidential Candidate to be Interviewed on Kudlow & Company today.
When:Monday, March 26th at 5 PM ET
Where:CNBC's Kudlow & Company
KUDLOW:Do you see a recession out there? Is that what you're hearing?
Mr. GIULIANI:I'm not hearing that, I heard what Greenspan says and I've heard what some people say and you hear some people say that and you see--you hear other people who say it's just a correction. But again, I'm not an expert. I'm not--I wouldn't want anybody to take my prediction of what is exactly going to happen in the future. I just think the government...
KUDLOW:Your goal as the mayor?
Mr. GIULIANI:I said my goal as the mayor was to do what's best for the city of New York so it had a positive impact on the economy. Whether the economy was in a period of growth or in a period of recession. And the best way to do that if it keeps spending under control, to try to get taxes down to competitive levels, put more money back into the private sector, regulate only when you have to, don't over regulate, let markets correct themselves. It's seems to us that's the proper role of government is. It's your job to do the predicting.
KUDLOW:In that--in your book, "Leadership," you talk several times about the benefits of a free economy. You talk about capitalism. I want to ask you, do you regard yourself as a free market capitalist? Do you regard yourself as a supply sider?
Mr. GIULIANI:I regard myself as a supply sider for sure. I mean, watched Ronald Reagan do it and learned it, so it works. Taxes get reduced, more revenue come in. Practiced it as the mayor of New York. I'm the first mayor ever to do that. It's almost harder to do in New York than it is in Washington. There was less of an acceptance for it and more resistance to it. But I have lowered taxes 22, 23 times. I started with a $2.3 billion deficit and by lowering taxes, we cleared that deficit and we started building a pretty big surplus. So not only do I believe in it, I've made it work. So I believe in it really strongly because it comes out of practical experience. Free market, more and more so. I've said over the last 10 to 15 years I've become more and more convinced that globalization, free market economics is the way to go for the United States. It really just challenges us to kind of predict the future and to try to think of the industries we have to create where we can take advantage of the large number of consumers that are emerging in China, the large number of consumers that are emerging in India. If we challenge ourselves, it really gives us the hope of real growth and that's what we should be pointing toward, growth.
KUDLOW:Do you invest in the Stock Market?
Mr. GIULIANI:No, I don't. I don't invest in the Stock Market. I did it a long, long time ago when I was really young and I got involved in all the investigations and all the prosecutions and I felt it was better if I didn't make individual investments. So I'm invested in funds, but not in individual--not in individual stocks.
KUDLOW:Why do people say to me, they don't know who the pro-Stock Market, pro-investor class candidate is. Many of the Democrats have been attacking rich people. They never talk well of the Stock Market. That even on the Republican side, no one is sure who's going to be the pro-Stock Market guy. Is that going to be you?
Mr. GIULIANI:Boy, this is--as the mayor of New York, I consider that a home town industry. I used to talk about the finance industry being to New York what the steel industry is to Pittsburgh 20 or 30 years ago. It's our home town industry. It's the thing that dominates 30 to 40 percent of the economy of New York City. It seems to me that's also true of the United States. And of course, it's the way in which we develop capital and drive these tremendous inventions, creations. I've always been in favor of a low capital-gains tax. In fact, as mayor of New York, I used to try to urge--actually removing the capital-gains tax. I thought it would be one of the best special benefits of New York. I couldn't quite get the Congressional delegation to agree with that. But the idea of you lower the capital-gains tax and if you do it smartly, you're going to end up with more revenues from the lower tax than you do from the higher tax. So I do think that if you look at my background and you look at my experience as mayor, I probably have the most aggressive, fiscal conservative record, supply side record. I'm probably the only one that's really practiced it.
What:Rudy Giuliani, former New York City Mayor and Presidential Candidate to be Interviewed on Kudlow & Company today.
When:Monday, March 26th at 5 PM ET
Where:CNBC's Kudlow & Company
KUDLOW:Do you see a recession out there? Is that what you're hearing?
Mr. GIULIANI:I'm not hearing that, I heard what Greenspan says and I've heard what some people say and you hear some people say that and you see--you hear other people who say it's just a correction. But again, I'm not an expert. I'm not--I wouldn't want anybody to take my prediction of what is exactly going to happen in the future. I just think the government...
KUDLOW:Your goal as the mayor?
Mr. GIULIANI:I said my goal as the mayor was to do what's best for the city of New York so it had a positive impact on the economy. Whether the economy was in a period of growth or in a period of recession. And the best way to do that if it keeps spending under control, to try to get taxes down to competitive levels, put more money back into the private sector, regulate only when you have to, don't over regulate, let markets correct themselves. It's seems to us that's the proper role of government is. It's your job to do the predicting.
KUDLOW:In that--in your book, "Leadership," you talk several times about the benefits of a free economy. You talk about capitalism. I want to ask you, do you regard yourself as a free market capitalist? Do you regard yourself as a supply sider?
Mr. GIULIANI:I regard myself as a supply sider for sure. I mean, watched Ronald Reagan do it and learned it, so it works. Taxes get reduced, more revenue come in. Practiced it as the mayor of New York. I'm the first mayor ever to do that. It's almost harder to do in New York than it is in Washington. There was less of an acceptance for it and more resistance to it. But I have lowered taxes 22, 23 times. I started with a $2.3 billion deficit and by lowering taxes, we cleared that deficit and we started building a pretty big surplus. So not only do I believe in it, I've made it work. So I believe in it really strongly because it comes out of practical experience. Free market, more and more so. I've said over the last 10 to 15 years I've become more and more convinced that globalization, free market economics is the way to go for the United States. It really just challenges us to kind of predict the future and to try to think of the industries we have to create where we can take advantage of the large number of consumers that are emerging in China, the large number of consumers that are emerging in India. If we challenge ourselves, it really gives us the hope of real growth and that's what we should be pointing toward, growth.
KUDLOW:Do you invest in the Stock Market?
Mr. GIULIANI:No, I don't. I don't invest in the Stock Market. I did it a long, long time ago when I was really young and I got involved in all the investigations and all the prosecutions and I felt it was better if I didn't make individual investments. So I'm invested in funds, but not in individual--not in individual stocks.
KUDLOW:Why do people say to me, they don't know who the pro-Stock Market, pro-investor class candidate is. Many of the Democrats have been attacking rich people. They never talk well of the Stock Market. That even on the Republican side, no one is sure who's going to be the pro-Stock Market guy. Is that going to be you?
Mr. GIULIANI:Boy, this is--as the mayor of New York, I consider that a home town industry. I used to talk about the finance industry being to New York what the steel industry is to Pittsburgh 20 or 30 years ago. It's our home town industry. It's the thing that dominates 30 to 40 percent of the economy of New York City. It seems to me that's also true of the United States. And of course, it's the way in which we develop capital and drive these tremendous inventions, creations. I've always been in favor of a low capital-gains tax. In fact, as mayor of New York, I used to try to urge--actually removing the capital-gains tax. I thought it would be one of the best special benefits of New York. I couldn't quite get the Congressional delegation to agree with that. But the idea of you lower the capital-gains tax and if you do it smartly, you're going to end up with more revenues from the lower tax than you do from the higher tax. So I do think that if you look at my background and you look at my experience as mayor, I probably have the most aggressive, fiscal conservative record, supply side record. I'm probably the only one that's really practiced it.