WHEN: Today, Wednesday, November 29, 2023
WHERE: CNBC's CFO Council Summit
Following is the unofficial transcript of a CNBC interview with Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Charles Q. Brown Jr. and CNBC's Morgan Brennan live during CNBC's CFO Council Summit today, Wednesday, November 29.
All references must be sourced to CNBC CFO Council Summit.
MORGAN BRENNAN: General Brown. It's an honor and a privilege to sit down and speak with you. And I will note, this is our first – or your first broadcast interview – one on one interview since you've taken on the role of 21st, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, though, you and I have spoken before in the past when you were Chief of Staff of the Air Force. But welcome and we're honored to have you today.
GENERAL CHARLES Q BROWN, JR.: Well thank you and it's a real honor to be with you today and look forward to our conversation.
BRENNAN: There's so much to get to. But I do want to start – there's something we do at CNBC on TV, we do a street cred thing. So I'm going to do the military version of that first, and I want to start with the fact that you started your military service as command pilot, you've logged more than 3,000 flying hours, 130 combat hours, but you have this call sign Swamp Thing.
GEN. BROWN: True.
BRENNAN: What's the story?
GEN. BROWN: Flying F16s, I was stationed at Homestead Air Force base down in Florida just outside of Miami. Back in January '91, I was flying back from Avon Park, which is the range up in central Florida. Got struck by lightning, aircraft caught on fire, and our checklist says if fire persists, eject. And so I had a pretty decent fire, wasn't close enough to the airfield to go land it was a residential area there and so I decided to eject so I injected over the Everglades and spent about 15 minutes in the swamp. When they picked me up, I was covered. My left side of my body was covered in swamp mud. And that's how they got the call sign Swamp Thing.
BRENNAN: And you've gone on to have quite the career since then. Your predecessor General Milley navigated the military through a series of crises I'd say both abroad and at home and with it what I will call the proceed politicization of the military in recent years. Lessons learned as you now shape this role and how are you going to now lead the joint forces?
GEN. BROWN: When I came in as the Chairman there's things I've been thinking about really throughout my career as an officer in United States Air Force, but as a senior officer. And I wrote a message to the Joint Force and that message outlined a few key things that were on my mind. One, owning our warfighting skills has primacy in everything we do. That's why we just – way our nation's wars. We want to be so good at that, that our adversaries do not want to mess with us. So that's my focus. What we do for each of the services, how we do that as a joint team, and then how we do that with our allies and partners as well. Next, it's the aspect of how we look at our readiness and how we look at modernization, so we can be ready to do what the nation asks us to do today, but also prepare ourselves for the future. I wrote accelerate change when I was the Air Force Chief of Staff. I still believe in that, that we still need to accelerate change to make sure we're prepared for tomorrow. And then the last is trust. Trust is the foundation of our profession. It's the trust that we do right by each other with how we take care of our servicemembers and their families. It's a trust that the American people have in our military, trust that our leadership has and it's about our credibility, and that's where my focus is as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs.
BRENNAN: And just in terms of background for our audience. I mean, you're the nation's highest ranking military officer. You're the top military adviser to the President. You were sworn in October 1. Six days later, we saw Hamas invade Israel, I guess starting there as we look across the world and in a geopolitically fraught landscape, I will call it, what are we seeing play out on the ground in real time in Israel?
GEN. BROWN: Let me if – I will step back and just think about, as you mentioned, it was into my first week is when I got a phone call early on Saturday morning. When I step back and take a look at all the things we've laid out in our national security strategy, national defense strategy. And when you think about that, that's what I think about as those key areas, whether it's the People's Republic of China, Russia, Iran, North Korea and violent extremists. What I do see is the aspect of how do we look at all those security challenges and work those collectively. When you look at what's going on in the Middle East is the aspect of what we've wanted to do is make sure that we were supporting Israel's right to defend itself at the same time, think about minimizing civilian casualties, humanitarian assistance, how we protect our forces and then also looking at not letting this conflict expand broader in the region. And this is part of the reason why you saw shortly after the 7th of October we moved in a fair amount of capability. One was to show our support but also to deter a broader conflict within the region.
BRENNAN: Will we see more US forces deployed to the area?
GEN. BROWN: Over time – this is something we talk about all the time and one of the areas and without getting ahead of decisions, but we look at our force posture, not only in the Middle East, but we also that's one of my responsibilities as the Chairman, is I'm not just looking at one crisis. What I'm looking at is really across what's happening around the world to ensure that we have capability and options in my role as the Chairman providing advice to the President, the Secretary of Defense and National Security Council. I want to make sure that I've looked at all the options. And because every option that I provide, there's a secondary impact. And I have responsibility to help identify what that impact might be, and not, you know, box ourselves in or box in the President. And so I really do focus on how do we look at what's going on the Middle East, but also pay attention to for example, what's going on in Indo Pacific and with the PRC being our basic challenge.
BRENNAN: Yes, I want to get into that as well. But first, just one more question or a few more questions on the Middle East and that is a retired general recently told me Hamas isn't an organization as much as it's an ideolog. And it raises the question, what does Gaza look like after Hamas, as it exists in its current form, in the region is defeated, assuming that's what happens?
GEN. BROWN: Well, I think one of the areas that we collectively and I'd say the international media needs to take a look at is what's the day after in Gaza. And some of those conversations have started. I've talked to my Israeli counterpart seven times. And I know, other parts of US leadership have talked to their counterparts as well. But that conversation has started in – because it's an important aspect of where Gaza is gonna go and how that helps set the foundation for more stability within a region. So I'd say that's more of a policy and political piece. But at the same time, I'm looking at – I have to pay attention to that as well as the Chairman and not – I have to keep that in my crosscheck and provide advice.
BRENNAN: Yeah, I mean, we do have American soldiers in the region. And we've had attacks by Iranian proxies on soldiers on US military outposts, most notably Syria. And it raises the question there too, how do we keep the I believe it's 900 troops or so in Syria that are now consistently at risk in that country? How do you keep them safe? How do you deter the situation from embroiling the US militarily, more specifically, or more directly?
GEN. BROWN: One of the things that we did do when we brought in – the capabilities I described earlier, is brought in additional capability for force protection. And so not only bringing in more capability for force protection but at the same time improving our posture at each of those locations. And that's what we've been focused on to ensure their safety.
BRENNAN: Ukraine –the head of Ukraine's military recently used the term stalemate in an interview with The Economist. Is that the current reality in that country right now? In that conflict?
GEN. BROWN: What I'll tell you, and I've talked to General Zaluzhnyi a handful of times as well since I came in in the two months I've been in this job. We do see as you go into the winter months, there is movement back and forth and what we are looking at is continuing to support Ukraine. And my first trip was within the first 10 days was to Brussels for the Ukraine Defense Contact Group where a number nations come together and make their contributions to support Ukraine. So we'll continue to work with the Ukrainians and continue to have that dialogue. In fact, I'm going to talk to General Zaluzhnyi again this week on, you know, their plan for the future at the same time, what we're doing with General Cavoli at the European Command to lay out the path forward.
BRENNAN: And one of the things he also mentioned in that interview is that it's going to require a technological breakthrough. What would that look like?
GEN. BROWN: I'd probably have to defer to him on what he's looking at. But I know what capabilities we have and capabilities we've been providing and the things that we will continue to do. But it's how we're able to provide not just the United States but the 50 different nations that have helped contribute and then the thing I'd also highlight just the will of the Ukrainian people. And that's the tough part. You know, I don't think we could actually measure that but the things they've been able to do over the course of the nearly 600 days has been quite impressive.
BRENNAN: It's been a David and Goliath story. To your point, though, in terms of U.S. capabilities, and what we've been able to provide and what our allies have been able to provide to Ukraine, I mean, the U.S. has almost – and I realize you're more on the operation side, not so much on the budget side these days – but the U.S. is almost out of current funding for Ukraine. Questions around aid packages and what that looks like and when that gets passed, but what do you anticipate in that conflict over the next year?
GEN. BROWN: That's a good question. And that's part of the conversation we're having. Secretary Austin was just in Kyiv, just before Thanksgiving to sit down with his counterparts and that was part of the dialogue with him to kind of lay out where the path is for the next year. I won't get ahead of where the Secretary is in some of the dialogue we're having with Ukrainians, but we continue to have dialogue with them and on the resourcing but also the strategy to move forward.
BRENNAN: All this raises a key question, and you touched on it a little bit earlier. And that's how do you balance the readiness of the future military with the needs of the current operational forces, especially at a time where we do have allies that are requiring capabilities and aid and drawing down American weapons systems and stockpiles.
GEN. BROWN: Well, there's a couple of things I think through. One is the value of allies and partners. You know, I'll just tell you, I've served all of my time as a general officer before I became the Chief of Staff of the Air Force out in Washington, DC. I was out working with allies and partners. And I know how important they are and it's how we were able to come together. You look at the international community for Ukraine to come together with 50 different nations that contribute. That says something. I saw the same thing during the defeat ISIS campaign as Air Component Commander for that effort and we had 70 nations come together. And so it's how you bring that capability together. The other part, you know, in order for us to continue to support not just Ukraine but ourselves is to get the budget on time. And it continuing resolutions did not help us actually provide predictability not only for us, but also for the defense industrial base. If you have consistent, steady funding, it's easier for you to write contracts to bring on workforce, build up facilities to bring capability not just for us, but also for our allies and partners. I think the one thing that I've found is that a lot of our allies and partners like U.S. equipment. Depends on the U.S. defense industrial base, and that's also dependent on constant funding.
BRENNAN: Yeah, I mean, and that sort of raises a key question, given the demands that we're seeing for American weapons systems and deterrence products, can that defense industrial base actually keep pace from a supply perspective with the demand it's seeing?
GEN. BROWN: It can with the resources and you know, that's why I think vast and continued resolution and getting to a budget. You got to look at it. Continued resolution has almost become a habit. Getting a budget on time is very difficult. We've proven it has been difficult over the past several years. That predictability with multiyear procurement and then at the same time for us layout priorities, you know, we do that. Our nuclear modernization is important. Our shipbuilding capability, capacity is important. Recapitalization for our aviation assets is important. Building munitions are important. And then on top of that is the funding we provide for our servicemembers and their families. All those are kind of laid out when these are the services putting in our budget. But the consistent steady funding and predictable funding is what actually helps us to ensure we're going to have the capacity not just for today, but into the future as well.
BRENNAN: So replenishing stockpiles, modernizing the military, and then preparing for war fighting of the future. In light of all that it speaks to and you talked about PRC earlier but this ability to continue to move to deter a pacing – or a great competitor, a great power competitor. Your assessment of the dynamics between the U.S. and China right now.
GEN. BROWN: Well, I would say, you know, the President just met with Xi Jinping. The fact that they're open to military-to-military dialogue.
BRENNAN: Is that happening? What will it look like?
GEN. BROWN: Well, it's yet to be, you know, it still needs to be, the details need to be worked out. But I expect at some point that dialogue will will occur. I think that dialogue is important because it helps to prevent miscalculation. But I also think through the aspect it's not just what we do as a military, it's what we do across what I'd say is all the instruments of power, what we do diplomatically, what we do economically, how we play in the information space. And, you know, the economic piece plays a key role in deterrence and how we work with allies and partners. If you think about the Indo-Pacific, how much activity goes, how intertwined we are, economically, with the Indo-Pacific, any type of military conflict will really disrupt the world economy. I mean I'm not an economist, but I'm just kind of thinking based on what I've been able to study is that has an impact. And that's why it's so important that all those play together and we think about it more holistically, not just for the military, and so we play a role as a military. But we want to be the, you know, a small m to capital D capital I capital E.
BRENNAN: I mean it raises the question this is certainly something that we see even in the business community which is has the risk risen of China making a move on Taiwan whether it is by force or perhaps by blockade.
GEN. BROWN: Well, I think you know, it really kind of really depends, and, I mean, there's a lot of different predictions, but what I really look at is for my response is make sure that we are ready as a joint force. And we do that with allies and partners, at the same time I want to pay attention to these other factors that are at play, and I wouldn't say in the background, but in the forefront. And, you know, I just think the fact that the President Xi Jinping we're able to sit down and have a conversation, having a conversation actually helps to bring down potential tension.
BRENNAN: Okay, we're gonna get into ifs here and you're probably going to tell me you're not going to answer this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. And that is, if we were to see something like this play out with Taiwan, what would you advise the President to do in that scenario, knowing that there would be many advisors at the table?
GEN. BROWN: Yeah. Probably not going to answer that one.
BRENNAN: Okay, I did want to ask about the Philippines though because we have been seeing somewhat of a standoff between China and the Philippines. We've seen joint exercises we're doing joint exercises with the Philippines and joint forces. China's also very active in the area, the South China Sea Second Thomas Shoal has been very much in focus. We have a very clear treaty with the Philippines as an ally. How would you characterize what is playing out right now in the South China Sea?
GEN. BROWN: What I will tell you is that what I see really with the Philippines is we do have a mutual defense treaty with the with the Philippines. It's one of the handful of countries that we have a U.S. defense treaty with in the Indo-Pacific, but a stronger growing relationship with the Philippines over the course of the past handful of years with their change in leadership. At the same time, what you see is what the People's Republic of China has done in the South China Sea over time, whether it's the features they built out, or the the aggressive tactics they've used to intimidate. Much of that's coming to light, and I'd say some of that's been going on for a while, but I think we're getting collectively around more and more visibility on what the PRC is doing and how it's doing things in international international waters, or territorial waters or close to territorial waters to intimidate. And I think we need to highlight that's not part of the rules based in international order or how, you know, norms of behavior. And so us being with the Philippines and others to highlight where those are not, I wouldn't say not playing by the rules but trying to shape the rules in their own to their own favor.
BRENNAN: One more question for you on on China and that is, as we just mentioned, a pacing threat. Are we as a country investing enough, moving quickly enough, thinking about new technologies and capabilities aggressively enough in terms of being able to counter that pacing threat?
GEN. BROWN: Well, I would say yes and no. I think in an number of areas we are, but, you know, as I came in as Air Force Chief of Staff, it will accelerate change or lose, because I think we can go faster in certain areas. One of the things I really appreciate about our country is our innovative spirit. And we you and I talked a little bit backstage last couple years, we're out on the West Coast. I've gone out to Silicon Valley to meet with different folks to get a sense of the work they were doing some amazing, amazing Americans that are committed to our now security, it's how you bring the two of those together, their technology and put it into into a form that supports our our men and women in uniform. I think we can do that a bit faster and so I will continue to push and that's one of the things I've been focused on I will continue to push really hard. I did not never want to be in a position that we say we missed an opportunity.
BRENNAN: I mean, you just touched on it but and I've spent time speaking to you over the years and it has come up many times in my conversations with people both on camera and off very you're very highly regarded with the investor community, the startup community and tech community and the defense community because you are very forward thinking and a very forward thinking leader in the Air Force. What do you envision warfighting of the future looking like, especially at a time where for example, we've done panels on this today, where AI, for example, and some of these other in autonomy and some of these other capabilities are moving to the fore?
GEN. BROWN: When I look at war funding in the future, speed, agility – will all be key factors. Information moves at a much faster pace than it did you know 23 years ago, our decision cycles will move much faster, which means some decisions will have to be made at a lower level because you can't bring it all the way up to the top, mull it over. I believe that there's there's we already have levels of autonomy in AI. We still have to have our service members in the decision making process. And I think we've been and we will but what this technology does it helps us cut through some of the chaff that gets to the wheat to figure out what is the most important parts of the information I need in order to make, you know, make a decision or make a recommendation. I'd also look at cloud computing where you're able to push the information all the way out to the ford edge at the same time because that will happen all the way back in my office. Now, there's a balance there that I don't need to actually you know, have to be in the middle of it. I've gotta be able to trust our service members at the lowest level and that thing, that's the one thing that I value is the quality of our people.
BRENNAN: I'm going to open this up for questions. But first, just one more last one from me and that is it's a very overused question, but I think it's appropriate here. What keeps you up at night?
GEN. BROWN: That there'll be a situation we're not ready for. And so my focus right now is to stay ready. Now I sleep pretty well. Five, six hours a night. But I really do want to make sure we're doing everything we can to be as ready as possible. Because we can't predict the future. I wouldn't have predicted what happened on the seventh of October in my first week in the job as chairman of the Joint Chiefs. But I've been very proud of what we've been able to do as a joint team. Because we always train, we're always ready, we got outstanding people who are able to flex but I want to make sure that we're doing everything we can to be as prepared as possible for whatever comes our way.